Parenting Through Play: Dr. Kim Van Dusen’s Simple Strategies to Reduce Tantrums, Improve Behavior, and Strengthen Family Connection

0:04 And so where I come from. In my parenting style, I call it played out parenting. In my book, I literally say like, this is a new played out parenting style you know that you can adopt, but it kind. Of meets at parents in the middle. Welcome back to the Running Win Mom Podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Selinsky aka the Running wy Mom. Today if we've got doctor Kim van Duson on the show. Licensed therapists, registered play therapist, professor, host of The Parentologists podcast, and the author of the new book Parenting Through Play. We're talking connection over consequences, tiny playful moves that actually change behavior, how play works across ages and neurodiversity, and the real life chaos behind the expert title. Get ready for stories, practical tips you can try tonight, and a few moments of honest parenting confession from myself. Without further ado, let's welcome Doctor van Duson, Welcome.

0:57 Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I am very excited. And my signature on my email is, we don't stop playing because we were old. We grow old because we stopped playing. So I thought this is gonna be the perfect Conversation today for everything. But before we get into that, we start each episode with our wine, Wine and One of the Week segment. This is where we share our favorite bottle of wine about something that's been bothering us and celebrate our recent victories. So grab a ba, let's take a deep breath and let's get started. So what is your drinking wine of the week? Ooh, well, last night and I go to for white is always a solvingon blanc. So I was, actually, I have just here last night with a friend and I ordered a Solvingyon blanc. They only had one by the glass on the menu, and I'm like, that's the one I want. I don't even know where it was from, but if it's from New Zealand, it's even better. That's my favorite. But my favorite bottle of wine that my husband will get me on occasion, it's been my favorite for years and years is a Robert Mondabi Pino noir and if you've ever had it, it's a reserve bottle.

1:57 It's less than twenty dollars, usually even less than fifteen, so it's pretty reason to be priced, but it's so good. So if you want a good read, that's my go to, and if not, it's always a salving Yon Blanc. Well, you're just like me. I'm like a savvy b from en Z is my favorite kind. I like that. I'm gonna use that. And I love a Pano Noir in the winter. You know, it's just I love so I'll have to try that one. So what is your complaint wine of the week? Oh well, if I'm being honest, I'm right in the middle of getting my book out in the world. My pub dic is coming around the corner, and so it's just been just jamming left and right. My schedule's been busy and just trying to get all out there. But I feel a little in the dark. Sometimes I'm on my own. I'm not having a ton of support, and so I think that's just my biggest wine. It's just like, I really want to get this book out into the world.

2:51 I know it's going to change lives, and you know, I just feel like there's a lot of obstacles along the way. I think people don't see the behind the scenes of what's happening when you try to launch a book. So it's it's been a lot of work, and you know, I just I just called a couple of bookstores so excited to be like, are you going to carry this book? I didn't tell them I was the author. I just said, you know, do you have it scheduled to be in the bookstore on Tuesday? And they're like, no, we don't even have it ordered yet, and I'm like no. So I'm like calling all these bookstores now, like trying to like sell them on buying the book, because I'm like golf, it's not if it's not in the public, then no one's going to see it and buy it. So it's just been it's been hard. I'm not gonna lie. The behind the scenes is a little stressful, but I'm also excited trying to stay present in the moment and just try to, you know, glean onto the people that are saying yes and interviewing me like yourself, and just trying to get it out there to as many parents as I can. Yeah, it's so.

3:40 I mean, I have been lucky to interview so many authors big and just starting out, and I just feel like it's such a difficult space to be in and and I love I love interviewing authors specifically for that, just in hopes that I can get their book, just even if it hits one extra person, like, because you guys work so hard and it's just so difficult to. Get it out there. So I haven't I'm not in your position, but I totally can understand what you're you're kind of going through. Yeah, thank you. Especially I could get to like a top of a mountaintop and just like start sharing it what they like, just throwing them off and just having them land and people there something I may have to do that. Yeah, So well, to go in a different direction.

4:26 What's your win of the week, Well, my win of the week is, honestly, I've just been doing again a lot of networking and I've landed a couple of really great media interviews for next week on television in a couple of local markets that I'm super excited about. And so I feel like my mantra I guess in life is if you don't ask, you're never going to get the yes. But you have to put yourself out there and take the risk, and there's going to be a lot of no's. You know, you are going to get rejected. I get rejected all the time. But the people that say yes and want to interview or believe in you know, this book, or just believe in what I have to share. I try to just focus on those, and so yeah, I got I have three local news media interviews for next week in three different cities, and they said yes, and they never would have to put myself out there and even asked, and that was my win for the week.

5:14 It is truly the most underrated thing is just asking and putting yourself out there. And again even with the podcast that I have been like, I'm going to ask this person. I don't know if they're good, They're probably gonna say no, and and some do. But then when people say yes, you're like, well, it's really nice that they said yes. And they never would have said yes if you didn't ask. And if you if people say no, you're still in the same position that you were before they said no. There's no exactly. Some people get caught up in the they said no, they said no versus you know, yeah, well someone will. Say yes, someone will say yes, yes exactly. So the running line, Mom, we talk a little fitness, what's your favorite way to say active?

5:58 I love hiking, so I love in southern California, and so you know, we're very lucky and weather is pretty good most of the year, so hiking's really big. I'm in southern California, so there's a lot of trails and I just love, you know, the movement. I love being in fresh air nature, just the trees. It's so therapeutic. There is an actual thing like called eco therapy and color therapy where you you know, look at blue and green hues and you know, get you get. Your your mood is better, You're more balanced, and just you know, your your stress levels are down, your your nervous system is more regulated. So there isn't actual science behind it, but I just do. I love the way it feels and I love just being out in nature, so we do that a lot. We have a new puppy, so I've been walking her in the neighborhood. She's five months now, so I put on my weighted best and I go walking in the neighborhood with her once or twice a day if I can. But if I have more time, definitely that or even maybe some yoga. But I do love running. I I'm just recovering from surgery still. I had a recent surgery lately. So once I'm back up and back up in, you know, one hundred percent. Again, I'm gonna get running because I just love the the endorphins that come from a good run. It really there's nothing like it.

7:02 Yeah, I love hiking, love running, so I can totally relate. But so what how do you think maintaining your fitness routine contributes to your mental health? Oh, it's it coincides one hundred percent if I I mean, obviously it's a mental health therapist, you know. I guess its probably cliche for me to say that, but I mean there's there's research back that it does, right, I mean, that's the proof is in the pudding there. But but it really does. Like I notice myself just in my mood and my temperament, my energy level, the way I interact with my husband, my kids, you know, people in general, the way reply to emails. No, it's just I get better sleep when I get movement. When I exercise and move my body, I have better sleep. I have a better mood. My cravings for different things are more tame.

7:49 So let's say that I don't get movement, I don't get sleep. Those are the days I'm eating more carbs and sugars and chocolate. And you know all the things, which they're not bad. Trust me, I love I love the good treat. But you know that's when I'm just grabbing for whatever I can versus actually like prepping a meal and eating more nutritionally and more balanced and things like that. So it just it not only affects me in a physical way, but it also affects obviously my mental state and my emotional state. I'm much more like patience and calm, especially when it comes to the kids. You know, if I if I get movement during the day. So important and moving right into kids. We also talk a little parenthood. So tell us about your family. So I have a husband and we actually met when we were getting our doctorates together. We both have our doctorates in psychology back in I think our program started in two thousand and seven and we both graduated in twenty thirteen. But yeah, we've been married since twenty eleven, and so it's coming up on fifteen years. This may actually it's coming up soon. And actually at our I was the graduate speaker at our commencement ceremony when we were again getting our doctorates, and I was actually pregnant with our daughter at the time. We had just been married for about you know, two years at that point, and I was pregnant with her, and so that was really exciting. And I started my parenting journey in twenty thirteen.

9:05 So I have a twelve year old daughter now, and a couple of years later I had my son. So I have a little boy who's nine inside, a sixth grader and a third grader, and we have the new puppy. So yeah, you know, right, but it's good. I'll running into the tween years and you know, in school age. But most of the kids I see in my clinical practice and that I've seen, I've worked as a therapist, as you said, a child and play therapist for almost twenty years now, and most of the kids I work with are toddlers in early elementary school. So kind of like the three to seven is missed my sweet spot when it comes to children from a clinical perspective. So so even though my kids are getting older, I'm still staying young. And then that's space with the young ones, you know, at least clinically.

9:49 Perfect for me to ask my questions as having a four and five year leading you up, like, I'm like here, I know, I'm like, let's get to these other questions. I got to ask you what you were at least prepared for in first gosh, well, you know, honestly, And I share this a little bit in the book too. I think no one ever taught me how hard it was going to be, or there was no book out there, I guess, or just no resource out there for parents, moms specifically. I'll speak for myself on going from one child to two, and not everyone has two children or even more than that, and I never had more than two, so maybe it's different when you have three four. You know, my friends that have seven children, so I'm sure experience is a little bit different. But going from that one child to two was really hard. And again I share this in the book of the Moment. I my daughter who was three at the time. She had just turned three when I had my son, and you know, I had see sections, so I was trying to recover physically from the C section. My hormones were mentally and emotionally all over the place and physically all over the place, and my three year old daughter kept asking me to play with her, and I share in the book that I just I didn't have the time or the energy.

10:52 I had this newborn. I'm literally feeding him in his rocking chair, and she's begging me to play with her, and I kept saying no, and I felt so much guilt. I felt so much guilt and shame and that I couldn't give my one hundred percent to her anymore because for three years that was it. It was just me and her, and I wasn't I had to share my time and share my resources, and it was it was really hard. I went through a really tough phase of trying to balance it all and trying to be okay with balancing at all and not feeling guilty that I was spending more time with one or the other. It's kind of opening up more love and sharing that love versus it being funneled into one child. Now it was being funneled into two. And that was That was a hard transition for me. Yeah, it's it's interesting talking to people because some people, like myself, zero to one was like a huge punch in the face, and one to two I was super nervous for because a lot of people, you know, said that was harder, and it was easier for me, but so many people that I but then some people at the apisite where they say zero to one was like super easy. It wasn't like a big change, and one to two was the big change. And I'm like, you don't have more than two, So I don't know what happens at three.

12:00 I don't think it's worse or better. I'm not sure our person yeah, you know, yeah, but I feel like it's split in the amount of people that you know, so many people. I mean, I was so scared to go from one to two because so many people were telling me how difficult it was. And I'm like, zero to one literally I almost did not survive because it was that hard for me. And then I kind of was like, oh, this wasn't as bad as I saw. But you know, yeah, and life goes on and you just you kind of adapt. I mean that's the think what we're good at, you know, as moms. We pivot and we adapt, and you know, it's a very fluid process and you just kind of you're you kind of get used to the new normal if you will. But but I remember, you know, just those first couple of months being very emotional for me of just learning how how to do that, how to even adapt and the pivot, like that.

12:46 So it's interesting to ask you this question because you are you have a doctorate in it, but you know, in parenting, but what is your parenting style? So in I know this sounds to light. I know I keep going back to the book. Obviously it's top of mind, but you know, I talk about, and I've talked about this a lot in interviews that I feel like the way that I was raised, you know, and my parents were baby boomers, and the way I was raised, and I think a lot of us in that are in around that age and that were raised the same way. We're kind of raised in a household where it was very strict. It was very like you do as I say, I'm the adult, you're the child. You know that's saying what was it? Because I said so was kind of you know what we grow up kind of learning and hearing, and I think there's a lot of parents that are my age that were raised in that kind of environment.

13:29 Still loving obviously, but you know, having that type of mindset around parenting that we we in a way went to the other side of the spectrum and almost rebelled a little bit of well, I don't want to treat my child like that I don't want to raise my child like that. I'm going to be more connecting and more loving and you know, all of those things. And so I think that's where like the gentle kind of conscious parenting came from, where we really allowed children to have a voice, let them be seen, let them be heard, but almost to the point where it was too much. And now we're kind of trying to find that middle ground because then we started finding that children are being much more entitled or kind of running the show, and the limits and boundaries were not as effective anymore or not not being told as you know, expected as much anymore.

14:10 They are effective, they just weren't being used. And so where I come from in my parenting style and I call it play it out parenting in my book, I literally say, like, this is a new play it out parenting style. You know that you can adopt, but it kind of meets at parents in the middle, where you there's chapters on limit setting, there's chapters on the boundary setting. There's you know, chapters on how to effectively give outcomes and consequences and things like that when they're needed. But that's that's a half the book, and half the book you know, relates around play and different things like that, but it's very behaviorally based, so you know, you still need those things to be an effective parent, But then you also need the connection piece, the trust and the safety and that foundation. So then when you do have to set a rule or ask them to comply in some way, they're more apt to do it because you've already done the roadwork first with the trust, the safety, the connection you know, to begin with. So it kind of marries both and kind of meets parents in the middle.

15:04 And what's one piece of advice that you give to other parents? Honestly, to be open to new things is something that I feel like I repeat over and over again. And what I mean by that is a lot of times I work with parents and they'll say that won't work for me. I'll give them an intervention to try at home, and they'll just dismiss it before I've ben trying it. Oh, that won't work for my child, you know, Or that's not the kind of parent I am. And that's fine. There's no perfect mold for the perfect parent, or even a mold for a certain child. We're all different, and you do know your child best as the parent but I just see things. You know, over twenty years, I've you know, done a lot of the parenting I've done with my own children and the clients I have and coaching those parents is all research backed. It's all evidence based, effective, well researched ways on how to parent more effectively. And so knowing that from that kind of expertise and my personal experience again being a mom, you know, so well, just you know, let's do an experiment. Let's just try let's just see if it works. Let's just try it for a week and see if it works until our next session and then okay, and then sometimes they'll come back ouid and try it, or I tried it once and it didn't work, Okay, keep trying it.

16:10 Let's do it for one give it a good go for one week, and then they'll do it and then they'll see the change and they'll know that it worked. And so I think if I can get parents past that barrier that they give themselves and limit themselves with because they come to me because they want solutions. They come to me because they want that advice. But then when I give it to them, it's like there's that pushback, you know of like right, you know, they kind of dismiss it, like that's not going to work, or I try it once, or But so I think that's what I would hope people that read this book and hear what I have to say is just giving it an opportunity. You lose as an experiment, but just try it and try give it a really good go, and if it still doesn't work, then take another tool out of your toolbox.

16:51 But until then, try this first, because this might be the answer you've been looking for. This might solve a lot of your problems and challenges that you're having. So it's just being open minded is kind of my biggest thing that I that I hope parents take away from it. All Right, well, I think that's the perfect segue to get into you. So you call yourself the parentologist. Walk us through what that means to you. How did you come up with that name and why you know you have a background in broadcast journalism and obviously play therapy, and how did that kind of lead to your whole identity. Yeah, it's it's funny because I feel like I needed all those other lives that I let I lived for so many years before I came to where I am today. And it's funny because the people that I worked with years ago when different careers that know me and know what I do now, and they're like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, or they'll say, you know, oh well that that training that you had in that job helped you get to where you are today, and it's true and I kind of needed them all to be here, and you know, not everybody needs that, but it worked for me.

17:47 So so yeah. So after my bachelor's I received my first master's in TV broadcasting and broadcast Journalism, and I worked as a reporter and a producer for many years up in LA I would interview celebrities on the Red Carpet. I would work for E Entertainment, Entertainment Tonight. I would do a lot of reporting for Fox Sports Radio. And then I kind of wanted to stay in that field, but I wasn't necessarily wanted to, you know, do the broadcasting aspect anymore. And so then I went into a sales advertising marketing job Corporate America. Wore suits every day, had my own office, my own assistant. I would go on you know, business trips all the time. You know, basically for these radio stations so I learned a lot in the marketing sense on that way. And then and then I decided I wanted to change careers again, and so I went back and got my doctor in psychology and then went, you know, down that path. And so and then when I finally became a mom, I knew I always wanted to kind of start my own business.

18:42 I knew the two things I really wanted to get my doctorate for, obviously in an inclusion of doing therapy with with kids and families, but I wanted to be a professor and I wanted to be an author, and I knew that I had to get to that point educationally to have that clout behind my name to really be able to do that. And so that kind of started started that path. And so, you know, that's when social media was just blooming. Like I think when I first started Instagram may have just been out for a year. Facebook and everything was still so new. I don't even know if I think texting even on a phone was done, and I know, I'm like, yet, no, I get it, No, it was. It was different back then, and so you needed kind of an identity if you wanted to start your own company and be branded. You had to kind of have a name and a website and a social media platform and all those things. And so I started researching.

19:32 I said, okay, well, if I'm going to do this, i'm you know, and I wanted to do interviews in media and things like that too, and still marry that those two, the psychology and the broadcasting together and kind of be like the expert that that goes on parenting segments and you know, things like that. So I researched names, and so many different ones came up, like the mommy therapist, and like all these different ones that I was trying to go for doctor mom and you know, and then yeah, right, I mean there was all those ones, but they were all taken. And so somehow I found parent you know, because I was a parent and ologist since I was a you know, in the psychologist field, and so I said, okay, parentologist, oh, parenting expert, that makes perfect sense, typed it in it was the domain was available, so I went with it, and I just branded everything after that. So that's kind of how it was born. And I was able to market myself on social media by using that background obviously, the broadcasting background, and then the psychology background, and that's where it was born and that's where it's led me to today.

20:34 So fun And you've said that play is one of the most underused parenting tool. When did you personally realize this does change the game in parenting? I mean, I think I noticed it in my very first play therapy class that I took. I personally fell in love with it after the first class, and I thought, why is this not being used more? And it's funny because most of my colleagues, if not almost all of them, including my own husband, can't fathom working with kids. They just don't know if they were great, they could be a great parent and still not want to clinically work with children. I get asked for referrals all the time and they're like, who do you know that also does what you do? But I don't. It's very few and far between to work with kids and to also do play as their specialty. So that being said, you know, I just knew that it was working in the clinical sense.

21:24 I mean I saw it every day with my clients that would work with them and all sorts of things, whether it was ADHD, autism, anxiety depression, kids their parents were going through a divorce, or just going through a life transition, a new sibling and moving to a new city, a new school, you name it, I would see it. I had a child with SELECTI mutism in one of my first years I was working, and she wouldn't talk to anyone for an entire year, not her teachers, not her friends at school, nobody. And so I worked with her in a play based way, and I remember the principal would where I was at a school, and I remember the principal looked through the window of the door and he got upset me called my super and said, I'm not paying her just to play with this child all day, like she needs to get some movement, like you know, we need to get this child talking. I remember him being so upset that I was just quote unquote playing with her. And I've had teachers refused to see me because they're like, they're misbehaving in the classroom.

22:13 It's a reward to come play with you, so they wouldn't. They won't even let them model the classroom, even to get their therapy for the week, right. So it was all these obstacles and I got that little girl to talk to me. I was the only one on the entire campus the entire year to get and she only whispered to me. But it was such a big win for me, and I did it because I connected to her through play, and I had that trust and that safety with her and that mutual respect. And so I really started seeing more stories like that, just over and over and over again, getting through to these kids, healing their trauma, healing the things they were going through, all by using play. And then when I became a mom myself, and I started noticing me just being more playful with my kids and having that more play based mentality around parenthood and started seeing my kids behave or other parents would say, how come your kids are never tangering? How come your kids are always listening? Or you know, and they don't. I mean, they have their moments, but I think a lot less than other parents that were watching because I just approached it very differently that no other parent was utilizing. So that's why I wanted to write the book. It's to just get all those tried and true secrets that I've had professionally in personal for the years and just give it to everyone in the most tangible, digestible way so they can implement those things in their home too.

23:28 So for the parents that are listening, and it's kind of like the people in the schools, you know who they hear play therapy and they think, what this doesn't you know, this isn't going to work, or I don't have time to play, you know, I'm busy. What are we misunderstanding about what is happening during this time? Yeah, and there's two. Yeah, that's a great question. I get it a lot, actually, And you know I can't. I can never force anyone to do the intervention this book, whether I know they work or not. It's hard to convince parents how to parents sometimes, so you know, there's that obstacle. But if they just, like I said, if they just are open minded about it, there is a mindset shift to it. And I'll share two really quick kind of stories and hope that it, you know, answers the question, but the first one being and I share this a lot, and I mean this with you know, in a funny way. It's a metaphor that I use a lot about how when two dogs meet for the first time, they sniff each other to see if they like each other right to connect, they sniff each other so it's very sensory driven. When adults connect, they talk, Hi, how are you, what's your name? You know, how do we get to know each other? What do we have in common? What can we meet? But it's all done through talking. When two kids connect at the park with their neighbors, what do they say? Can you play with me?

24:43 Or knock knock knock? You know, can so and so come out and play? It's all done through play. And some of us not even you don't even ask that question. Sometimes they just walk up to the child next to them and just start playing, parallel playing, you know, aside them. So it's all done through play. So as absurd as it would be for a parent or for a yeah, for adults to think that they would meet each other by sniffing each other. Can you imagine like adults being in the wild and like sniffing each other. It's just I know the image. I'm sorry, I know the visions of it. But it's just as absurd for parents to think that they can connect with their child through talking, because play is their language. It's really how they're going to connect with them the most. And so and then parents will say, well, i'm tired, I don't have time for this it. You know, plays for kids, Well, ay, if you prioritize play first before anything else, you'll get more compliance, you'll get better behavior, you know, you'll get all those things, less power struggles, less tantrums, you know, less defiance, all of that, less aggression and anger. And that's again proven in the research. And you know also, but parenting is going to be hard either way. Parenting is really hard when you're struggling with your child, they're crying, you're yelling, it's very stressful. All everyone's stress hormones are high.

25:50 That's going to be hard, right, and that takes time and energy to get everyone regulated again, to you know, diffuse the problem all of that. That takes a lot of time and energy. And peacefulness also takes a lot of time and energy, but it's a whole different route to take. So, if you're going to put your time and energy into parenting and doing one thing over another, do you want to do the defiance you know, power struggle, tantrum way and the yelling and crying way, or would you rather use the techniques that I share and maybe put a little effort into your playfulness and doing it that way? But you're going to get a lot more peacefulness out of your home and a lot more compliance along the way too. Yeah, and so what does play give kids emotionally that traditional discipline or talking it out sometimes can't.

26:31 Well, I think, you know, just going back to you know, a lot of a lot of children don't have the speech and language skills to be able to communicate in talking way right. Some you know, some kids are nonverbal, or some kids, you know, just just get anxious around having eye contact and having long conversations, you know, talking, you know, a five minute conversation does seem like, oh, it's a teaching moment, We're just teaching them this or that. But to them it can feel like this excruciating lecture where they feel trapped and so things are going to happen. They're either going to withdraw and then you're gonna get get mad at them because you're you think they're ignoring you or not listening right, or you know, they might act out and start doing something just to get in trouble, just to get away from you so they can get away from the conversation. You know, So one of those things will happen. So if you do, you know, these things in short increment or do it through play. You can still use it as a teaching moment, but if you're doing it through play, it's almost disguised of Okay, we're playing and we're talking, or we're you know, we're playing through the scenario of whatever's happening, and it's much more approachable and digestible for the children to comprehend and make sense of and respond to as well.

27:37 Yeah, all right, well let's get into the book Parenting through Play. It's a playful title with such a serious promise that people are coming to get advice about. What was this single idea or moment that pushed you to write this book and what gap in parenting books did you want to fill? Yeah? I did, thank you. That's a great question. And I did see a gap in the parenting world and parenting books. One of the last parenting books that came out was about twenty years ago, called Playful Parenting. If anyone's read it, you know it's a pretty popular book. Lawrence Cohan is the author, and it was phenomenal. It was a great book, but it was twenty years old, and I wanted to write something more modern. Right. That's two decades that it passed a lot of generational differences that have happened from parents from twenty years ago all the way to today and so, and I really wanted to write it in like a very like I said, quick simple way, like very quick how tos of if you want, if you're dealing with tantrums and meltdowns, you can go write to that chapter and get a pluthor of different ideas you can try for that moment. So it's a resource you can read, you know, from cover to cover, or you just flip to that chapter, like I have a chapter on picky eating and what to do and to help kids through you know, eating challenges and trying to get them to you know, try new foods in a playful way. So if you're dealing with that, you can go write to that chapter and try one thing and if that doesn't work, go to the next intervention or whatever it is. And so I tried to write it because I felt like a lot of books.

28:57 So I taught play therapy as a professor for ten years and the books I had in the class were great, but they were very scientific, very research based. I think my students were getting a little bored it was just kind of theoretical, a lot of case studies, and I always said, I'm never going to have a case study when I write a book. You know, I'm like, one of these days, I'm going to write a book, and you guys have to, you know, buy My book is the class book. But and so I think I just saw the gap teaching play therapy as a professor, and then also like as a parent, I was I was seeing that gap, and so I said, I'm just going to do this. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to do it myself, make it all you know, ebrit in space. And then I do sprinkle in some heartfelt moments from my own parenting and my own clients to a certain sense. But it's written in a very, like I said, digestible way. And so when I saw those gaps, I just knew I wanted to fill them.

29:44 And like I said, it's the play therapy, solution focused therapy, and positive interventions and supports. Yes, Peba, Yes, those three evidence based programs are really the trifecta when combined together, which has never happened before in literature. When you combine all three is really the secret to the sauce, you know, the secret of you know, not just play therapy, not just PBIS or positive behavior interventions and supports, and not just solution focused therapy, but all together really compliment each other to make this parenting style the most effective that I've never seen before. And so many of the listeners they are juggling multiple jobs, school runs, toddlers. How would you persuade these stressed, time poor parents to play that play is worth the investment?

30:28 And maybe what are too what are one or two like micro play moves that they can try quickly, like under five minutes. Yeah, no, that's great, Okay, so let's do this, Okay. So one of the ones that always comes top of mind that I share with quickly because again it doesn't usually sometimes even take a lot of time to think of it, But one of them is I'll go back to the picky eating chapter at meal time, because that seems to be a big struggle for a lot of people, no matter what age your kids are. And so one quick thing I share in that book or in that chapter is, instead of giving your kids a for work if they're kind of you know, having some power store kind of protesting at dinner times, instead of giving them the four it give them a pair of tongs. I get those little there's like many tongs you get at Amazon, right, And even just telling you about it, like you kind of smile and you laugh and you're like, oh, that that sounds actually kind of fun. Like I want to eat with tongs as an adult. I think that just sounds fun. And it's different. It's how it's outside the box.

31:17 It's creative, and your kids will love it and they'll actually probably be more apt to eat the meal without the protest if you give them something fun like that to do. And I have a whole bunch in the book that are similar like that, like just really quick things that you have around the house to just make it more fun when it comes to eating or you know, when it comes to cleaning it, or toys when it comes to doing chores, when it comes to having tantrums and meltdowns, or if your child's just disregulated, and you know, I have a whole that's my longest chapter of just tip after tip after tip of here try this. You know, I have like the lantern method I have so when you read it makes more sense. But but the tong ones is My favorite a tantrum. One that I use a lot is having leaning into tantrums, not trying to protest it as much, but leaning into it. So if your child already activated and their nervous system was already escalated, get one of those little colorful sandtimers, and again something really inexpensive investment. If you don't have one, you can always use something at home too. You don't have to buy these things to make it effective. But have them lean into the tantrum and say, okay, you have five minutes.

32:17 When the sandtimer's done. That's when time's up, and we're going to go on to the next thing, whatever it is, you know, whether it's a transition to something leaving the park, you know, whatever it is. And so they can stomp, they can cry, they can roll on the ground, as long as they're safe and the people around them are safe. It's a very strategic intervention for them to actually just say, okay, fine, have your tantrum. I'm all for it. I'll be right here waiting for you when you're done. You know, you're not abandoning them, you're not rejecting them, and they're not getting punished for it. And then when the time's up, then you're okay, now it's time to transition. And most kids don't even need that five minutes. I usually do a five minute timer. They need two or three because they're like, okay, I'm done, you know, and they want to move on to the next thing, you know. So that's a fun one. Or even the other day, I'll share something my husband just did. He my son was you know, laying on the counter, and he was tired.

33:01 It was a long date. He didn't want to eat his dinner, and my husband was getting a little frustrated. And instead of punishing them or shaming him for not eating, or you know, and all the things we should go to bribing him, all the things we try his parents, he took his hand and he put it on his back and he wound him up like a toy or like a robot, and he wound him up, and he's like, okay, it looks like, you know, you're at a juice We need to put more juice into you. And he wound him up and he said, okay, now you have your one hundred percent, like your battery is charge. Now you can eat your dinner. And it worked. That's all he did, and that's all he said. It's just so little simple micropractices like that. Again, doesn't have to be a toy. It doesn't have to be you sitting on the floor for thirty minutes having active dialogue with your kids, which I know is not preferred and exhausting for a lot of parents. I don't know really any parents that love doing that all the time. But it's those little little shifts that you can do in the midst of what you're already doing, and just the language you use and the things that you say and do that really make this that effective. I love that. I'm going to use that for sure.

33:58 Yeah, and your your approach refrains discipline through connection and play and parents, you know, for parents who are used to the timeouts and consequences, How do you kind of explain the difference between playful structure and permissiveness, because I feel like that comes up a lot where people think, oh, oh, you're just gonna be letting your kid, Oh you're gonna let your kids just do that, and they're you know, or so I get I guess that's kind of what I mean, Like, how do you reframe it to be like, no, this action yeah, it's hard. Like I said, that permissive ist type of parenting is what I'm trying to get away from, you know, because I feel like, you know, validating a child's emotions one hundred percent all the time, teach them or you know, validate them, teach them empathy, teach them how to do repairs, because you know, when there is a problem that occurs and someone does get hurt, whether it's physically, emotionally or whatever, you know, usually repairs the best way to patch that.

34:53 But that goes back to the attachment and the connection piece. And so, like I said, if you if you use play in the way that I'm describing in the book, and you create that foundation, that safety net, if you will with your child, then when it comes to disciplining them, they're going to be more apt to listen, follow directions, not protest as much because you already have that foundation set up through the playfulness, through the things I was just describing on you know, and not reacting out of anger or punishments or things like that. That sometimes is our go to because that's how like again, we were raised and that's kind of our what we have been learned and by society saying this is what works. But in the long run it can be very detrimental, and we don't need to go into that, but I talk about it in the book about you know, chronic yelling at your children. Chronic punishments do lead to a lot of mental health anxiety and depression and flight or fight you know modes and things like that. So approaching it from this, but again I have a whole section on limits, boundaries, et cetera. So you know, setting the limits and saying you know your feelings are valid, but the way you're behaving is not okay, that doesn't follow the rules of our home, that doesn't follow on my behavior expectations, which you tell them ahead of time, and they already know what they they already shouldn't know what they mean, and because you're very open dialogue with them on that. And then but then you know, falling through and if you had that limit set, then you need to follow through with whatever that natural or you know, predetermined consequence is.

36:16 I call them outcomes in the book, but you know, same difference, but you know, doing things like the do over method I talk about in the book. So let's say your child knows they're not supposed to be running down the stairs, which we know is a safety concern obviously, right, But kids get excited, they run, That's just what they do. Like when you go to tell kid not to run, and then they start like kind of walking really fast, skipping or in a hoping because they're like, well, I'm not running. So instead of you know, saying don't run, you say, you know, please walk, but you know, changing language like that. But the duover method. They're running down the stairs and you say, hey, you know that that's not the rule of our home. The ruin our homeless for us, and you take it out of your own you know, emotionality, and you just based on the rules solely, and you say, you know, the rule in our home is to walk down the stairs. So I would love for you to go right back up this stairs and then walk down and show me how it's done. And if they do it, and then that's it. There's no consequence to that. Yes, they did something wrong by running down the stairs, but they were able to stop themselves and redirect them to have that do over, and so then you just praise them and say great, thank you so much for listening. In fond directions and doing it the right way, and you know, I'd love to see that more in the future and then you move on, you know, so I share different things like that in the book on how you can how you can set those limits and those boundaries with them in an effective way that doesn't shame them or blame them or you know, things like that, because there are going to be those moments that play doesn't fit in. That's where that other half of the book comes from, where you know you do need that structure set.

37:40 Up and that is going to be We had an incident today with my son. Him and my daughter were playing and he he hit her in the face because and he has these he has them like every once in a while where you can tell he gets like overstimulated, angry and he's almost for he hit her in the face. And so you know, we're we we do play and we do time out consequences as well. Like you know, obviously in that situation, we didn't do my husband didn't do anything play in the moment. But what would you suggest that could be, like we took a stuff he's away and had him sit and time out for that what I don't know if that's right.

38:21 Or wrong. I mean, you know, honestly, I feel like a lot of parenting is honestly just about trial and error. You know of what works for you, what works for your child, what works in your home based on their developmental level, their you know, their age, their temperament, you know all those things. And so I don't know if she say that what you did was wrong. I think I've done something very similar to that with my kids in the past, because a lot of times, again we're in that moment, we just go right to what we think of and if we second guess ourselves, you know, later we can say, oh, I probably shouldn't have done that, MA able to do differently next time. But you can't really go back. I mean, teaching your kids that they're you know, you're not perfect either, and you're gonna make it heeded in the moment and share that along with them, I mean, it's perfectly fine and even encouraged. So a couple things. The one is I talk a lot in the book. I think of a chapter called well, I know I have a chapter called this, but I think it's called the ABC's of Behavior, and where it talks about being that detective, being curious, behind what the child's behavior is. And so with your son, you know, maybe he was triggered because he was hungry, he was tired, he was overstimulated, like you said, maybe she took a toy from him and he got upset about that, or she wasn't sharing, or he you know, he didn't want to share, or whatever the case was. But figuring that out first, and then I even have a part where I talk about preventing those behaviors from happening in the first place, because let's say him know, he's getting tired, you know, he's hungry, Like maybe we'removing them before those things actually happen, and kind of catching them before he gets escalator, before the hitting even takes place in the first place. I do have a chapter on anger and aggression, and there's lots of different tools in there and ideas of what parents can do for that chapter specifically, and then maybe using a limit setting and replacement strategy, so

39:52 you know, saying, Okay, your sister's not for hitting, or I see you hit your sister, she took the toy away from you. I know that hurt your feelings that made you mad. Being mad is totally okay, but hitting your sister is not okay, and really separating those two as a boundary, and then say and then redirecting it and again this is all evidence based, but redirecting it and say, okay, so if she's not hitting, what you can do is when you're mad, and you can have this in the playroom, you can have one in his bedroom wherever you might, maybe in the car, I don't know, but have like a pillow or something nearby where he can just hit that instead, like, Okay, you can't hit your sister, but you can hit this pillow, or when you're mad, you can hit your stuff animal even like just something that's not gonna hurt him or somebody else. And you know, so when he gets mad eventually he might and you know, he's still on the younger side, so it's it's one of those things you kind of have to reteach a few times before they really get it.

40:38 But you know, redirecting him and saying, you know, and like I said, defining the difference between the feeling and the behavior and then giving him options of what he can do with his anger instead, maybe he leaves the room really quickly and you know, screams at the top of his lungs or you know whatever. I've probably got tons of ideas, but whatever is going to work for him, and reminding him, Hey, when you feel your body get angry like that and you want to hit your sister, what can you do instead? And teach him that in the calm moments, so when he's in that adrenaline state and he's ready to you know, hit her in the face, he remembers, oh, wait, when I'm angry, I'm supposed to do this instead, And so you're you know, teaching it. So when the time actually comes, hopefully he'll remember that and sooner than later he won't do it again, I hope.

41:22 So I know what you do, take some breasts, leave the room, you know, but I'm gonna maybe maybe I'll try the you can go hit your own your stuffy or your pillow or something that might it might. Help, say, I mean, you know, like I said, validate his his feelings because you know those are them but in the state. But you're not. But you're not being safe with your hands. So we're gonna have to leave now. And so the boundary is that he needs, you know, instead of you taking his stuff away, he needs to leave and he might kick and scream on his way out, but he needs to leave and say you're not when when you can, when you decide you can be safe with your hands, then you can go play again with your sister. But until then, let's have a cool down and you can sit with them. And they said, do those deep breaths or whatever it takes to regulate him again, but follow through and take them out, regulate each other, and then he can go back in for another tribe. Yeah, I will take that advice. Yeah, hopefully, yeah, you know, if it works, hopefully, I know.

42:17 So how do play based strategies change from toddlerhood through tween years and then to adolescent. You know, I think it definitely see developmentally, things change, cognitively things change, and play looks different from toddlerhood to tween hood and teenagehood. Boundaries look a lot different. And I was just talking some of the day about how I was doing an episode on sleep training and how different even sleep is. We know when your kids are a little versus your kids are older and you're still lose sleep, But when they're teens, you're there, they have a curfew and they have their own car, and they're out in the world and you're up because you're worrying, wondering when they're going to come home and if they're going to come home safely, and who they're with and what they're doing, you know, versus when they're little and you're not sleeping for obvious reasons. So I think, you know, as we evolve in parenthood, you know so much changes.

43:02 And you know, one question I do get asked a lot, is you know, from toddlerhood to twein hood or teenagehood. I'm a twelve year old now, of what does play look like at those ages or what does parenting look like at those ages? And it does change. However, I would like to say the constant that I see even with my own children as they grow. And I've worked with a lot of high schools and teenagers in the past and have even taught in high school before, and so is the connection piece never goes away. The attachment piece is always there, and playfulness can always be there, just looks different maybe when they're teams and tweens. It's more about having you know, listening to music together and you know and or you know, building legos together, or you know, doing puzzles together, playing board games or Uno or something like that, versus you know, playing with dinosaurs and cars and trucks and toys and you know, dolls and things like that. So playing and playing and getting that connection through play is no matter what, you know, zero to eighteen and beyond is still there. And the attachment piece they need to connect with their parents, you know, they need to connect with their caregivers in order to have a good positive relationship. And so any way you can find to connect with them no matter what age they're at, you know, finding what they like. So when they're little, they might like trains and dinosaurs and dolls and so forth, and then as they get older it might shift a little bit, but still hanging on to having those daily check ins with them, keeping a pulse on their mental health, the things they like, the friends they're hanging out with, their interests as they change, and genuinely being with them and just showing an interest in what they're doing too, and just having a respect for that as well, like respecting them for the person they're turning into and say, hey, you know, I, you know,

44:34 you really love art. Let's cultivate that. Let's take an our class together, you know, something like that where it still creates that space that you can have with just the two of you, but just looks a little different as they grow. And then the other one I wanted to ask is about parents of neurodiverse kids. You know, they need practical tools too. How do you adapt your play based methods for children on the autism spectrum or kids with sensory different different. Great question, and again not the first time I've been asked this actually for the past. I think I resigned about two years ago, but before that I worked for a center in southern California that was specifically for children that were neurodiverse on the autism spectrum, and so for four years I worked with so many different, you know, clients of all different ages from the little ones literally I think my youngest was three, possibly all the way through in their young young twenties, and in a lot of a lot of the play based strategies I use in my book, I actually would work with them as well, and a lot of them did work. Especially a lot of the kids that I worked with were nonverbal, or they just had very severe ADHD so they couldn't focus very easily, or you know well as as a comorbid diagnosis, or they didn't have the speaking, speech and language skills, and so play became very almost more vital in that neurodiverse community than it did for the typical neurotypical child because they didn't have the language skills. You know a lot of the kids that you know, I say, play is is their language, and it is even for typical children who don't want to talk with We started our

46:05 episode talking about that. You know how kids don't really that's not their language to talk to parents. But when your child can't physically talk to you, it just it layers a whole other level of complexity. And so play becomes vital for those neurodiverse children who don't literally have physically had those language skills, and so you know, you might be connecting through animal sounds. I remember one client I had. She couldn't talk, but she would do animal sounds, and so her parent and her would sit there on the floor. It was so beautiful and they would sit on the floor and do animal sounds together. She'd be like, Okay, this is a tiger and she would roar, or this is a pig and she would owink or you know, whatever it was. And then her child, who again couldn't talk, but she would make these little you know, you know, or she would go nay or whatever it was, and it was just so beautiful that they connected through this playful banter with each other and didn't even need words at all. And so again, a lot of the things that I that I present in the book, a lot of the concepts and strategies I present in the book have been used in the neurodiverse community and are great for neurodiverse children. If there's a parent out there listening that has has a child on the spectrum, well, this conversation was just wonderful.

47:13 I could just keep talking for hours, but I'll let you get back to your your your life after this combo. But I'm going to leave the listeners with one more question. So I would like you to finish this sentence. If parents understood this one thing about play, everything would shift. I'm probably not going to say this in like one one or two words. Okay, I feel like a paragraph, not a sentence, but no, that's all right, but I finished the paragraph. Yeah, yeah, I think if they just understood that of how well it actually works as as I talked about and you brought it at the beginning. It's such an underutilized, you know, modality that if parents really knew how it actually worked, and they did read this book cover to cover and actually implement it in their own home, they would see the hugest shift. They would see much better connection, much better communication, much more peacefulness, a lot and a lot less of those other things that we've talked about before, the power struggles, the tantrums, the defiance, the anger they aggresh, and the yelling, the crying.

48:19 They would see so much less of that. And again, we're human and we have emotions, parents and kids alike, and so not every day is going to be rainbows and sunshine, and neither is a play based strategies that I share about in my book, they're meant to use them in your daily life and it will shift everything. But I think just just you know, being like I said, I'm going to go back to what I said before, and just being have an open mindset and being open to these strategies and using them. And just like you know, your eyes lit up when it works for you, a mine when it works for me, and it will for them too. I was speaking at a conference a couple weeks ago, and I shared a lot of what I'm sharing today, and I had four or five moms text me that night and say I didn't really realize how easy this was. One was saying they were trying to get their child out of the shower and the child was refusing to get out of the shower to get ready for bed, and she said, normally she would have just yelled or given a consequence for not listening, or whatever the case may be, but she had me in her head, and she said, you know, she had them like roar like a tiger all the way to his bedroom, and you know, she's like, okay, pick an animal you want to be. Let's act that out and then you can get out of the shower and go to your room.

49:25 And it worked. And she was like dumbfounded, like it was just like, oh my gosh, it actually worked and it diffused everything and it made everything so much easier and better. And she was like, thank you. I just never would have thought to even try that or use that type of strategy. So I think when people read this book and they have those aha moments and they actually try these things and see them actually working, in real life and how much better it's going to make them as a parent or you know, have a better you know, parent child relationship. That's that's my hope, that's my goal and hope that that's what they get out of it. Told you it's going to be a paragraph. I love it though. It's a great way to end it. I mean, that's super important and so many of the things that you talked about I'm going to start implementing in my life.

50:08 And I haven't even you know, gotten through the whole book. So I know that the listeners will be able to utilize this a lot of the things you gave in this conversation, and I'm sure the book. I know the book will give them even more. I already know, you know, I'm going to be texting on my friends. Get it. You'll you'll understand. Try it. So thank you for coming on and talking about that. I really appreciate it absolutely well. Thank you for having me. And so that'll bring us to the end of another episode of The Running Wine Mom. As always, thank you everyone for spending time with us today, and don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow me on Instagram at the Running Wine Mom Underscore and where can the listeners find you and your book?

50:55 You can find the book wherever books are sold. It's on Amazon, Burnes and Noble Books a million, might even be in your indie bookstore, so there's lots of places to find them. On my website, the parentologists dot com, you can start there, and I'm most active on Instagram, So if you find me at the Parentologist, you'll see me on there, and you'll see my podcast and different things and resources as well and different links to things. But that's where you can find me and where I'm. Where I'm you can find me the most. Awesome and I will link all of that. Thank you again for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So thank you so much for joining us today. Remember you are strong, you were capable, and you were all amazing. Until next time, keep running, keep sipping, keep playing, and keep embracing the joy of motherhood tears, and I'll be back next Tuesday.