Reality TV Secrets & Dead Housewives of Philadelphia with Timothy Hedden

0:00 I think it did. And I do edit everything. So if there's something that you're like, can I resay that? You know, just say, okay. All right. Welcome back to the Running Wine Mom podcast. I'm your host, Samantha Selinski, aka The Running Wine Mom. Today I'm so excited to be joined by Timothy Hedden. Timothy spent a quarter century in the trenches of reality TV as a producer and editor working on iconic shows like The Real Housewives of Atlanta, New Jersey, and Potomac. Now he has taken the behind-the-scenes drama to the page with his debut murder mystery thriller. Dead Housewives of Philadelphia. Yay! We are diving into reality TV secrets, how editing footage translates to writing suspense, and what happens when the drama turns deadly.

0:44 So without further ado, welcome Timothy. Welcome. Hi, thank you so much for having me. This is amazing. I just feel like I feel like your audience is like my core audience for this book. Suburban moms, like they love it, you know. It's just like, In the Philadelphia area, which is even better. I mean, you don't have to be from the Philadelphia area, but it's just the whole if you are and you know the mainline area, this is just going to be the perfect fall murder mystery book for you. Yes. Um, so before we get into the book, to start each episode, we have our wine, wine, and what of the week segment. This is where we share our favorite drink.

1:25 Then about something that's been bothering us and celebrate our recent victories. So grab a glass, take a deep breath, and let's get started. Um, so just as a timeout, like you can pick any drink. You don't have to pick like a specific drinking wine. I always say because people are like, what if I don't drink wine? It's okay. All right. So let's start with what is your drinking wine of the week or drink. Well, I I'm gonna go all biblical and just do water. So perhaps it'll turn into wine, but going the biblical route with water. I also am having my water tonight as well. Um, so what is your complaint line of the week? Um, I don't know. You know, the book launched on the seventh of October and I thought I'd be a millionaire by now.

2:10 I don't know, perhaps that's my wine of the week. But you know, on the on the other side of that is the win, you know, like I published a book on October seventh, so there's my win, you know, so yeah. Super exciting. And um just, you know, you should be so proud of yourself to many people don't even publish a book. So this is and it's it's so great. Um, you know, and again, in the Philadelphia area, I love anything from the Philly area to be in pa on pages, so this is just perfect. Yeah. And actually a friend of mine texted me today. She's like, I love that you have a Pierre Robert reference in there. And I'm like, I I had to, you know what I mean?

2:52 Like the radio's on in the van and I was like, oh, you know, of course it's gotta be Pierre Robert. So I mean I know he just passed away, but I so I thought it was like, oh you know, it it I it's sort of good for both of us. Um, all right, so why don't you tell the audience about yourself, how you got into reality TV, and then why you decided to write a book. So uh I grew up in Bucks County. I grew up in a little historic hamlet called Falsington, which not a lot of people know because you don't drive through it, you drive around it. I went to Pennsbury High School. I graduated in 1982, many, many, many moons ago. Uh I moved to New York when I was 21. I tried to become an actor, but that is a dream that was cut short when I was kicked off the set of law and order for screaming screaming a forgetful actor's line from the back of the courtroom.

3:42 So, you know, like all the extras were in the back of the courtroom and you know, this guy couldn't remember his lines and we were just so mad. So and the line, the like start of his scene was like true or false. So like, you know, they would, you know, everybody would be going and then the camera would pan to him and he'd be like and then they'd have to reset and do the whole thing again. It was in the middle of August, 90 degrees in this courtroom. Like after the fifth take, you know, they're like, they pan to him and he's like. And I was like, true or false? Girl, they picked me up. It was like I was like a drunk at a bar. They just escorted me out, slammed the courtroom door. And if you go, it's I think it's season three, episode two, I forget the name of it. Um, conspiracy maybe.

4:23 Uh, you can see me behind the guy's uh shoulder, like you know, my big poofy bleach blonde hair and big shoulder pads, and then the next shot I'm completely gone. So it's just like love that. So yes, that the woman called me, you know, the woman who c used to cast extras at New York City, Sylvia Fay, she called me and told me that my career was over. So my god, I feel like it's like a Joey Photone or not Joey Fatone, Joey moment from like Friends where like you know, he has the So then you went to behind the scenes. yeah, so you know, I mean I sold furs at Sacks with that, but like I've had a bazillion careers.

5:04 I did stand up comedy and you know, then I got into television. I was working at you know at a Broadway producer's office and then reality TV came out and I was like, god, I want to work on reality TV and I got a job at the food network and you know I was in my thirties, you know, so it was like I was the oldest production assistant. And you know, the People at the food network noticed. They what do you want to do with your career? You know, you do want to work here? You know, because the food network was, it was still fledge like a fledgling network. You know what I mean? So it was like, you know, they would they would move in like Rachel Ray's set for 30 minute meals, and they would film all of her episodes for like two months, and then they would move her out and put in Molto Mario. So like I worked loading in, loading out, you know, doing set stuff.

5:44 And um, they were like, Do you want a career here? And I was like, I want to work in real reality TV. And now killing myself that I didn't stay at the Food Network because, you know, I'd probably be an executive with a house in the Hamptons by now. But uh yeah, so I got into reality TV. I started as a casting director, then I became a producer, and then I became an editor. And um yeah, it's I I used to say it's it's a it's a silly way to make a lot of money. So it was it was so much fun. You know, reality TV production in the beginning nobody really knew what they were doing, right? We sort of created this genre and it just it was fun. And now it is, my God, it's such a nightmare now. just crazy. Like the schedules are compressed and the money's not there. And you know, it's really um it's you know it's obviously it's always been a business, but now even more so.

6:29 Um because these huge corporations gobbled up the things. Anyway, I don't want to go off on a tangent like that. But I mean, so I so I you know I was I needed to move up. I was a casting director and then I became a producer and then I wanted to be an editor because As a producer in the field, you know, you you know, I talk in the book a lot about human manipulation, and that's really what reality TV is. I mean, let's all be honest. So it was really difficult for me to look at in someone's eyes and lie to their face. It really it started to eat on me and I left a show and you know, like I I was doing a show, a mom show, and I had to make the kid cry, whatever. And it was I called my husband and I was like, like, I don't wanna You know, like I I didn't become a producer to like manipulate this kid to say that he misses his mom.

7:18 Like it was just ridiculous. So I came back, I went to NYU. I, you know, had to be a started to learn how to edit. And then I had to start at the bottom again, you know. So now I'm like a 40-year-old, you know, assistant editor and you know, worked my way up. And you know, here we are. Um, I worked on and in the beginning, like Bravo was like it. You know, like you couldn't work on a Bravo show unless you worked on a Bravo show. So it was a really difficult thing to break into. And I was working at a production company that produced Atlanta and a couple of other things. And you know, when you work in a production company, you jump from show to show. And luckily there was an opening and they liked me, so they just put me on Atlanta. And so that's how I got my Bravo credits.

7:58 But um if we could talk about my iconic episode, the Gone with the Wind Fabulous episode. Um I think, you know, you had to ask me a question if I thought it was iconic at the time. Yes. I mean, I I we were getting notes from the network that was like, this is awful and this needs to be this. And my producer was getting so mad. I'm like, dude, I don't care what this is the best piece of television I've ever seen in my whole life. Like I could have just put the raw footage on air and it would have been amazing. That they were in Anguilla for a week and they were just all going crazy. And it was Portia's first season and Kenya's first season, and they just it was it was just crazy. And when she twirled off and said Gometha went fabulous, girl, I'm telling you, for I don't know how many years it's been, fifteen years.

8:41 I am riding those coattails right to here, right with you. I mean, I am I put it in every press kit. I put it in every email. I just want to make sure that everybody knows that that if you you know, I'm the only editor on the credit and I'm very proud of that. And I take no credit for it, you know, because it was just all of them. So Yeah, as you should though, because I mean I think when when we watch those shows, you're not really thinking about, you know, and that's something that we'll probably get into the hours and hours and hours of footage that you have and it's put into such a small, you know, uh po uh 30 minute episode or whatever, our forty five minute hour episode.

9:22 Um So it is some sort of magic that you guys do to keep people's attention and coming back. And then I'm sh so I'm sure when you find that like golden moment, it is something just to be so excited about. Yeah. And then especially on a girls' trip, because there's just so much footage when the women go on a trip. And so it's there's a the what happens is all the the field makes notes about what happened. Some of it is fantasy and some of it is reality. Um and then there's a producer that goes through all of that and marks, you know, then gives me like, I don't know, an eight-minute string out, and I have to cut it down to three minutes. So it's, you know, three or five, you know, depending on where it hits in the thing.

10:04 But like, you know, it's a lot of that. So plus I have to, you know, there's a lot of things that I have to maneuver to make them say what they're saying at the time. And, you know, it's we use something in the business called a Frankenbite. Have you ever heard of a Frankenbite? Perhaps you read my novel, Dead Housewives of Philadelphia. I talk all about it. no, a Frank like Frankenstein is you know, a a human made of different body a Frankenbite is just, you know, a sentence made of completely separate words from different sentences, you know, different like interviews and verite. And so like, you know, sometimes if if you see the back of their head and their mouth is moving, um, and the the their audio sounds a little wonky, it's probably a Frankenbite.

10:53 And you know, so my mother couldn't ever compute That you know, she's like, but she's saying it. I'm like, mom, she is saying, I like your sofa, not why did you sleep with my husband, you bitch. You know, that you know what I'm saying? So it's like, we can do anything. I once, I'm sorry, I once had to make a seed out of nothing. So like the the head of the production company wanted a scene that never happened. So it took my producer and I two days to go through the footage and and this wasn't on Housewives, this was on another show, but it it It didn't you know the whole scene didn't exist until I came and then the pr the the owner of the production company comes in and he's like, I want more.

11:34 I'm like, there's no more. There wasn't even this. There wasn't this didn't even exist. Forty-eight hours ago, this wasn't even here. So yeah, so it's a little crazy. What can it uh obviously the real housewives it can be a little horror, but when did you realize that reality TV was kind of ripe for a murder mystery thriller? Well, I mean the short answer is, you know, after ten years and tens of thousands of hours of watching raw footage, I decided to it would be cheaper to write a book where I kill them instead of going to therapy. So that that's the short answer.

12:16 But I mean I always think And was it cathartic killing them? Yes, very, let me tell you. Very cathartic. I'm writing the second book now and I'm like, oh my god. I'm I'm killing them again. It's amazing. Um Yeah, but no, I mean it's it's that sort of atmosphere with very wealthy, spoiled women, you know, it's just sort of the perfect setting. You know, I get to sharpen my, you know, gay queenie, bitchy, queenie chops. You know, I can say whatever I want and nobody's gonna think, well that nobody'd say that. Turn on the TV. They say it all the time. Uh yeah. Yeah. So and you know, it's I don't know.

12:59 I just I always I never thought about writing this, but then once I had the idea, I was like, this is gonna be a hit because I I just don't I don't and it has nothing to do with my writing. It's I don't see how I can fail because it's a reality TV bur it's a real housewives murder mystery written by a real housewives editor and it's all behind the scenes stuff. So uh there are probably 15, 10 to 15 novels that are uh based in reality shows. But they're all told from the contestant's point of view. This is the only reality show novel that is told from behind the scenes. So I mean it's it I think is what people are like wanting any like they're like, Yeah, we see this, but I wanna know what's happening.

13:43 What else is happening? You know, the what's happening behind? That's that's what everybody wants to know. They want more. I write a scene, there's a production meeting, and you know, obviously it's a little overdramatized, but like that's what happens. Like, you know, people always say, like, I want to be on reality TV. And then I run away from them because it's it's a certain type of crazy that wants to be on reality TV. But what people don't realize is once you sign that contract, you don't have any control over your life anymore. So, because the network decides who's gonna do what and how and when and what the story arc is gonna be for that season. So you don't get to decide. what you're gonna do. Now can they say they don't want to do it? Yes, they can. And that's where the editor comes in.

14:26 I make them do it. uh my gosh. well that's gonna like kind of flow into the next question because we can see the editors, they're the true puppet masters of reality TV. You make people look brilliant or you make them look like they need deep personal intervention. what is the most outrageous piece of edit room magic you've pulled off in real life before you brought it to the page? Okay, again, this didn't have this didn't happen on Housewives. So this I worked on a show. And it's just one of my favorite stories. It's so funny. So this this woman hadn't seen her friend in, I don't know, three to five years.

15:07 Let's see if you can all put that together. Um perhaps she was away somewhere. Anyway, so they we set up a scene where they meet at a hotel. Now they're best friends, right? They're childhood best friends. So the girl comes. And the the woman who not our cast member, her friend, the visitor, has a husband and children, right, at home. So anyway. So they go into the hotel pool and they're in the jacuzzi. And the net the network wanted a lesbian storyline. So the girl said, can you turn the jets on? And our woman said, I don't know where they are. And the woman moved to her. So I had to make this moment into a lesbian moment.

15:53 And all I could, I kept saying to my producer, I was like, when that show airs, that woman is gonna, she's gonna have a house full of people. my God, I'm on TV. Her husband's gonna be there, her kids are gonna be there, and her husband's gonna turn to her and say, Are you a lesbian? Like that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever had to do. I mean, hands down. The most ridiculous. I am like, I know everyone says reality TV is not reality, but this is just confirming all of that for me. it was that was it. I mean, and it's just like like when you get a note like that, it's like what the like what? Like ridiculous. Like the show is good enough. What are you and did it it didn't even buy anything?

16:35 You know what I mean? It's just like this poor girl was like sitting on a Friday night. A house, a house, I could just see a house full of people and and nacho chips being passed. And then it's like so stupid. to tell us? uh exactly. So I will tell you this story. So I this is in the book. this happened very all early on in my career. And I worked on a show and they were doing a makeover segment, and there was an African American woman. I I did put this in the book, and you know, it was the makeover segment and it was the biggest segment of the week. And, you know, they wanted and remember this is back in early 2000s.

17:16 So, you know, the woman said she had skin tags on her neck that she needed. To remove an African American woman. So like the film cruiser shows up and they get her sob story. She just had a divorce, whatever. And the producer says, Let me see the skin tags we're gonna remove. And the whole thing is it's like people weren't doing medical procedures on the show. Now I know a skin tag isn't really a medical procedure, but back then to get into a doctor's office was huge. So the producer looks at the skin tags that at her neck and then he excuses himself and he goes out and he calls the executive executive producer and he says, They're not skin tags. They're like flat moles. And the executive producer who had promised the network a medical procedure and he he started screaming into the phone.

17:59 I remember it clearly. You go in there and you glue a fucking raisin on her neck. And and the guy was like, What? He goes, I'm sorry, do you want me to take to glue a raisin on this woman's neck and take her to a dermatologist and have the dermatologist perform a raisinectomy? And the guy said, that's exactly what I want to do. And they took the woman to a dermatologist with a raisin on her neck. And you know, the dermatologist, remember, the dermatologist is getting all this press. It it it was brand new, you know? So he performed a raisin. my gosh.

18:42 my gosh. And early like for those like listening, early two thousands reality T V just really anything went. I feel like it was just, you know, there was a lot of things that that are different, you know, than especially with Big Brother, but I was watching Big Brother, and you know, I so I don't really watch like housewives shows just because I know the formula and whatever, and it's it doesn't so I I watch competition shows and we watched Big Brother, and this season was their 1000th episode. So they were like going back, you know, to season one and whatever. And I said to my husband, I was like, God, it's just it's so different now because you used to be able to call somebody like a fat pig on TV.

19:26 Not that I not that I want to call somebody a fat pig, but it's like there was no canceling back then. And people loved it. People loved it. So and now, and I also put this in the book too, there's just a generational shift in the audience. And the the the the main demographic now doesn't go for violence like that. You know, they don't want they don't want any of it. They that's why women don't you know hit each I worked on mob wives. They used to punch each other in the throat. You know, you couldn't do that now. that. So like they don't they don't do any of that anymore. And so that's has sort of you know, all of that shift is sort of solidifying now in the programming, you know.

20:06 So what are you gonna do to amp up the drama um when there's no physical violence? So, you know, it's crazy. the Jerry Springers and the Maury, those were the yeah. It was really you know, Jerry Springer was big. And I, you know, we sort of took, you know, that and and put it in somebody's home or whatever. So, you know. Um, but that's why I would always say, like, why do you want to be on it? Like the like nobody wants you to be happy. Nobody is gonna sit and watch you fall in love and have their no be dr they want you to break up and fight and they want somebody to cheat, you know. So it's like I don't know why anybody would want to be on. Yeah. Um, well, so your setting of Dead Housewives of Philadelphia is on the main line, which if you're from the area, you know it's very wealthy and I'm surprised they don't have a Housewives franchise of it.

20:57 But it gives a distinct flavor. What is it about the Philly Elite culture that makes it the perfect backdrop for a high stakes drama, the killer egos and the murder? Well the first and most important thing is that Bravo did not have a Philadelphia Housewives franchise. That was the most important thing. But I mean I grew up in Philly. You know, I grew up in Bucks County. So, you know, Philly was my city when I was growing up. And, you know, I just thought I would I would toss it out there. And uh, you know uh I mean if you're an Eagles fan, which obviously you are if you live in Philly, you once Philly fans are behind you, it's you know, there's nothing like it. So and I've gotten such great response from From Philadelphia readers, and it's really, really been a positive experience for me.

21:40 But I just I wanted to do something that was like a nod to my hometown, and I was happy that I was able to use Philadelphia. So, um, you know, rich women are everywhere. So, but I wanted to be able to do something that was familiar to me. I mean, I moved away when I was so young, but it was like, you know, my husband is from Philly, he's from the Northeast, and you know, he uh, you know, he's like, he la like he he's Like I never watched football, like I'm a big queen. You know, like my husband's like, we've gotta watch the game today. I'm like, okay, like whatever. Like, I don't know, whatever. Okay, I don't know what's happening, but you know, whatever. Um, so yeah, so like it it it had just become, you know, because of my husband and his family and you know, and all of his cousins have just been, God, they're the my biggest supporters.

22:29 They're just amazing, but they're all from Philly, and like it's you it's sort of like an homage to everybody. In my family and his family and you know, so that's it. Yeah. But one thing my husband kept asking me the other day, he's like, Do any of them live in Philly? And I'm like, They don't. Like I have one in Villanova, I have one in Yardley, I have one in Washington's crossing, you know, I uh so I you know, I I guess I forgot. I don't know. I just wanted because with the other housewives, I mean, granted it is the state of New Jersey, but they live all over the place, you know. So yeah. Yeah, they're outside and they come into the city, yeah. you know, I used, you know, whatever. That some live on the main line, some live, you know, they all live in big houses and they're all really rich and they're all really horrible.

23:13 So And there is like a difference of like I feel like the main line rich and the Bucks County rich and but they're all it's all they're all everywhere, they're you know? yeah, yeah, yeah. I do have a scene in a diner. There used to be a diner in Center City called Little Pete's. Um, and I worked I worked in Philadelphia for a while. And uh, so I have the office um, you know, located where my office was. And you know, so there's a diner called Little Pete's and I do have a waitress named Vi who's like, Oh, you know, oh hand come on in hon, let me get you some toast. So like I have her accent throughout, and it's just and let me get you some water.

23:53 So I for me, it's like I, you know, I I mean, when I started researching you, I was like, oh girl, she's she sounds just like everyone in my family, you know, because when I moved to New York, my fri a friend of mine was like, What the hell is Wooder? And I was like, Wooder, what are you talking about? It's Wooder. Like so it's just it I can hear it and it just, you know, makes me sort of warm inside because it's my entire family fancy. The accent is such like a and I didn't realize it until I started going to other places. I'm like, what do you mean? Like I this this is what it sounds like. Yeah. Um, so you when you are editing, you have all of these clips to use that you can either make up your own stuff or or use to edit.

24:38 But when you're writing a book, you have a blank sheet of paper. What was the hardest part of kind of getting out of your own way to sit down and write chapter one? Writing chapter one is the hardest thing. It is just because I'm doing it now with so the next book is called Housewiv uh Dead Housewives of Boca. And it would it's just like cause you you have it mapped out in your head and then you know that's where I was like, I I'm I think I'm gonna write a book. I'm like, go ahead, write sit right right now, sit there and tell me, describe to me how you're even sitting in a chair. You know, let's see how far you get. So it's like it's really hard. And I think that um, you know, I was writing another novel.

25:18 I'll just back up a little. So I was diagnosed as dyslexic in in like m first grade. So like I could never really read. So once audiobooks came out, I was like, you know, I was off on it. And then a friend of mine was like, you should take a writing class with me. And I was like, I don't know if I can write. And then, you know, like I went in and I started writing these personal essays, you know, tortured, tormented, gay child, high school, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, my God, I can write. And then so during COVID, I wrote an article comparing AIDS to COVID and it won a National Journalism Award. And then I just wrote another essay that just won like top honors in a writing contest. So it's like, I I can write, you know? And I so I took all these writing classes and I I decided that I'm gonna I I I I wrote a book called The West 15th Street Murders, where I kill all my neighbors.

26:07 You see, I kill everybody I know. It's it's crazy. I know, like, don't go back to Bucks County. I'm doing research right now. no. So and then I heard a I heard a writer on a podcast talk about this two book deal she got. And I was like, well, what is my second book gonna be? And Dead House Lise of Philadelphia, it just popped into my head. So I didn't even know what the book was gonna be. So I wrote on so I finished the West 15th Street Murders, nobody wanted it. And then I realized that this book has such commercial appeal, I think. Yeah. gonna write it. So it took me two years to write it. I had taken a break from working in reality TV. So I worked on it every day and I said it to a developmental editor, and she said, This isn't working.

26:51 Because I had like a super fan doing the murders, you know, just because super fans are just a little crazy. Sorry if you're a super fan. I mean, you know, extreme super fans, you know, like some people stalk these women. So it's like, you know, so I wanted it sort of to be this extreme super fan. But it wasn't working. So I had to go back and rewrite the whole thing. And um and now and this is the book. And it was the best decision I made. And it I think the book works really well. And I think, you know, going back over my notes, like, you know, the first round of drafts, um like the prologue, I I wrote the prologue first, and the prologue has remained the same.

27:32 And um So I I don't know. It's like, you know, things move around, just like with reality TV. Like you shoot a scene last season and now they want it this season. So you put it in. Um, you know, so I was able to move things around, but once I was able to sort of solidify the story in my head, it all just sort of happened. And then I think if you ask any writer, rewriting is easier easier than writing. It's just, you know, because the framework is there. So and I'm so there's a pancer and a plotter. I don't know if you've heard of these terms, right? So a pancer. gonna ask you that questi that was gonna be my next question is how you set it all out because pantser writes by the seat of their pants, they just write and a plotter plots everything out. And it's like I tried so hard to be a plotter, but it's like I c I don't know what a character's gonna say until I put them in the scene.

28:21 And that has happened to me so many times writing this book. Plus, in your head, like you know, you take all these writing classes and they're like, you don't want everything to be so predictable. So it's like, you know, you're writing, somebody says something snotty, and then of course you you know, you want to snap back, but it's like go. Go go deeper, go somewhere else, see what else you can get from it. And I I mean, I don't I think plotting the book that way, I don't know, maybe maybe my first and second draft is the plotting for me, but I can't sit and whatever. I mean, I just made an outline for Boca, but it's like it's I still have to write it, you know what I mean. So, but uh I think this book will go much faster now that I've already I already have one in there.

29:03 So yeah. way that you want it to write. Um, so let's let's talk about some of the things in the book. Um, you know, your lead producer Bailey, she lives by the rule, a reality TV producer with a conscious shouldn't conscious shouldn't be a reality TV producer. How much of Bailey's cold calculated producer instinct comes from the real life in the field? Um, I think that's the mantra we all live by. You just you you are you are paid a lot of money to go and get what the network wants, and you have to get it. And you know, again, I'm gonna say human manipulation. I feel like that's really what it is.

29:43 I think, especially with Housewives now, it's a completely different beast. It's it's more luxury now, you know, it's more everybody has to look. A fabule, you know, like Teresa was a housewife, you know what I mean? Teresa Judas was a housewife, you know what I mean? Like these women in the beginning were housewives. You know, they weren't like they weren't flying private jets, you know what I mean? They were they were housewives raising kids and you know, whatever. So now it's completely different because they have reached, you know, a certain level of wealth and fame. So I think housewives is is sort of its own beast. Um, but it's, you know, it it's a template. that a lot of shows still use.

30:25 Um, a lot of them fail. You know, I I don't think anybody, you know, even some Housewives franchises fail. So I just I I feel like You have to you are sent to do a job and you have to do it. And then like I said, if they don't do it, we have to do it or c come as close to it as possible. We have to do it in the edit. And so in your opinion, what's the psychological line where good T V crosses into actual destruction? Well, in the book, there is an inciting incident. And I will say that that inciting incident I actually witnessed this woman have a meltdown on camera because she was and it again, it was I I so the book is an amalgamation of my entire 25 year career.

31:12 Nothing happened on it. Listen, these women when they get on TV and they're like, they made me get drunk, it's like nobody made you do anything, sweetie. Just like when Kenya Moore came on uh Atlanta, girl, she knew what she had to do. And she did it. And that's why she slid right in and didn't give a shit. Sorry, crap. Um, and so that's she was like the first one I ever saw that was just like, this is, you know, I know how to play the game and I'm gonna play the game. And you know, you're like she didn't have to pretend to be nice, she didn't have to pretend to be anything. So, um, but I I feel like the uh depending on the network and depending on the audience, you can get away with a lot more.

31:54 So there was a scene that I saw where a woman got they made the woman get drunk and she ended up on camera having a nervous breakdown and after, you know, beating up a security guard and she was a little teeny thing of a woman. And so like when I I mean I've been party to and I've seen a lot of horrible things in reality TV, you know, when again, human manipulation, but to see someone actually have a nervous breakdown. is really disturbing and it was something that I never ever ever forgot and I felt so bad for that woman. Um to see a woman crawling around yeah to see a woman crawling around on the floor.

32:37 Finally the producer, you know, bent down and hugged her and it was it was guttural. It was just it was horrible. It was ex I it I put it in the book exactly the way that I saw it. And it was it was even worse watching it. Now that wasn't my show. It wasn't my episode it wasn't anything but uh one of the companies I worked for was producing a different series and and whatever. And you know what they did? They deleted the footage. So it's like, you know, that's which is illegal also. The woman, you know, committed a she beat up somebody. So you know what I mean? Like it's just like so there's lots of things that go on and but the worst part for me was the press release was that this woman got out of hand and they had to fire her.

33:18 Which I also have in the book, you know, and it's just like Fuck you. You know what I mean? Like you made her get dr like it just is like it was gross. So so when when I saw that, I thought if I ever write something, I'm putting this in there because it's so it's just it was so unnecessary. And you know, I mean I don't know how many times women's lives are ruined or people's lives are ruined, aside from that lesbian who's not a lesbian. But how She might still be dealing with that right now. But this was the worst thing I'd ever seen. And I feel like it was dramatic enough to fit into a book and have people go, Well, this can't actually happen.

34:00 And it actually happened. So Yeah. Um, so in the housewives they all have their taglines. How did you construct the taglines that sound both hilarious and darkly predictive for a woman who's about to be murdered? Um, I don't know. You know, I'm just a bitch. You know, I just was like I'm hot, I'm rich, and I'll cut a bitch. I just it's girl, I put it on a mug. I have merch too. I put them all on mugs. It's so funny. Um my favorite one is Mama used to say jealousy is so ugly, no wonder these bitches look so bad. I love it. It's I don't know where it comes from. Samantha, it just comes from my soul. I don't know what to tell you. I was like prepping this on the plane and I was I did not fly down with my family.

34:41 I flew by myself and I was reading the taglines and I'm sitting there like cracking up laughing. I'm like, my god, these people probably think I've had one too many on the plane. also love Josie's tagline, which is people call me a dumb blonde, but I'm actually a brunette. Now who's the dumb one? I just like and she's so stupid in the in the book. She's so dumb, it's beautiful. So I love it. I don't know. I just you know, like look, in the you know, the the producer is in charge of creating the taglines for their specific woman on the shows. And you know They come and they're like, What do you think of this? What do you think of that? So that was always fun, you know, to to to do the tagline. So um so what was your favorite scene to write in the book?

35:26 I love there's a seance for the first murdered diva, and there's a psychic, a phony psychic named Madame Lola, and it's just so rid like she's so ridiculous. She has an Eastern European accent like Arnold Schwarzenegger, and she's just and she wants to be a star, you know what I mean? So she's like a TikTok star and she wants to be on the show. so you know, she shows up dressed in a sequin gown and then Bailey's like, no, no, no, no, put on the head wrap and the Yeah. big denim skirt, like, you know, whatever. She's like, I want to look like pretty woman. You know, so it's just like she's it I think that's funny. And I think the prologue is is brilliant. No, all the women are together, all the divas are together before they get murdered, and you know, it's really um I I love the group scenes, but I love also um, you know, there's a gay character, Skylar, and he's just got some of the funniest lines I've ever written.

36:19 And you know, I will say that. W when I started writing it, I had been, you know, I had taken a break from a 25 year long career and I was so bitter. If you're reading Bailey and you feel like she's bitter, it's cause I was bitter. You know, I I poured it all into the page. but yeah, no, I love that scene. I love, um I mean there's a couple scenes that I don't want to talk about, but um I really do love that. I love the production meeting with the um with the head of the network because she's really so horrible. And she catches Bailey in a lie and she calls her out on it and she just flatly says, you know, why do I think I'm lying?

37:05 Because you're a liar. You lied about this and now you're probably lying about that. So I love all of that stuff. And um, so I I just there, you know, I love the whole book obviously, but Some of them are funnier than others. And then you know, others, once you read it, we'll c you'll g call me and we'll we'll discuss, you know, sort of the end of it and I'll tell you whatever. But you know. I think Bailey has a has a great story arc and you know, she's you know, she's tied to a chair when it actually happens. So so if you read, I think it's chapter twenty-one, I really spill like I will I'm sure I'll never work in reality TV again. It's like I mean, I just tell what it is. And then when Bailey is is sort of Rem so, you know, Bailey, okay, Bailey gets kidnapped, right?

37:47 So and she's having this moment in the basement while she's tied to a chair that the reason she's here is because of everything she she created this type of TV, right? So the head of the network, Lila Stone, told her what she wanted. And then Bailey is the one who pushes these women to the limit. And Bailey's the one who sort of, you know, created the, you know, ratings gold and the drama. So She realizes that the reason she's tied to a chair is because it it's her own doing. She is a victim of the of the machine that she helped engineer. So it's it's I think that sort of arc. And so she has this, you know, she's sitting in the dark and she her her whole career plays in front of her.

38:29 And she sees, you know, look, when I started reality TV, I was just like, I loved, I would have worked 24 hours a day. Like it was amazing. And you know, just to say things like, they're going to set, or can I come to s you know, like st you know, stupid things. And I was like, my god, I'm on set, you know. Plus you go to a party and you tell people you work on housewives and everyone's like, my god, my poor husband is, you know, in the background somewhere. They're like, he's I'm a massage therapist. They're Okay, great. Anyway. So I just feel like so that so Bailey is in the tied to a chair and she's playing her whole career, and she realizes that you know, you have to climb the ladder and you see. that like your superiors, they lose their life.

39:11 They don't get to go to weddings and, you know, bedside deaths and births and vacations and parties because you this you have to you're you're you have a multi-million dollar budget and you can't, you just can't. So I used to never be able to make plans for dinner. Like because it was like if a network sent if a executive sent notes at six o'clock, like you had to stay until the next day to do like it it there just wasn't a question. So it's it's it's that also. It's it sort of gives everybody the sort of an insight on what we actually have to do. Now I'm sure, you know, every, you know, lawyers, bankers, whatever, I'm sure they all go through the same thing. But I didn't write about them. I wrote about this. So plus I just think, you know, people people always like it, I I think it must seem really easy to do, but it isn't.

39:59 And there's so much pressure because there is so much money. And you know, I remember when I first started. I gotta I mean this is how long ago it was somebody the an executive producer threw a VHS tape at my head because they had moved up the sorry like I'm telling you, like you and you didn't get paid for sick days and you didn't get paid for vacation and you didn't get paid for this and you worked, you you got paid a certain amount, and then you had it didn't matter if it took you eight hours or twenty hours, you didn't get paid any more money. And then editors started, I think probably in the mid-2000s. To get sick of it and they went on strike and they get got a union and editors now, you know, make you know, you have to work, have to pay them overtime and you have to do this.

40:46 And um, so it it but it's a long road. When I first started, it was like you you're sick, you're not getting paid. You want to you don't want to work on Fourth of July, you're not getting paid. Fourth of July's on a Wednesday. We got a show to deliver on Friday. So it's completely changed now that way. And also, you know, you can't Like I can't tell you how many fucking people call me, you're a fucking idiot. You know, it's like if somebody said that to somebody now, they'd be like, I'm going to HR. It's like there was no HR. There is no HR Like, what you crazy? So I just feel like it's it's changed for the good, but it you know, it's i they just don't people that work in it now and come in, you know, don't understand what we actually had to go through. And it was it was crazy, you know, it was it's it's I I always feel like like we people who work in TV, like we couldn't fit into the corporate world.

41:33 And so like we're like the circus people. You know what I mean? It's like nobody nobody would put up with this crap. Like who's not gonna get paid for Fourth of July or Labor Day? It's like we won't. We won't, sure. Oh my gosh. so if the divas were forced to sit through a reunion hosted by Andy Cohn in the afterlife, who would bring the most receipts? Aaron. Aaron. Aaron is a the wife of a billion billion billionaire. I mean, they I think her and Nikki both have rich husbands, but Aaron is just evil. And she will she digs up dirt on everybody. You know, there's a scene in the book where God, can't even remember where it is now, but um she Aaron, I think Bailey is talking about it, and she talks about how she paid like a homeless woman to say that Nikki was her mother and Nikki abandoned her.

42:27 And then she paid these actors to say that they were in the country club and that Nikki was using racial slurs. It's just like she Erin doesn't care. She wants to be the star. And then Nikki, because Nikki is is sometimes in the crosshair, Nikki doesn't want to she none of the women want to correct it because when Erin is makes you the star, then you're the one they're talking about. So Erin was sort of she is the best character. So she's she's the one who I'd wanna, you know, sit down with and be like, girl. So yeah, yeah, yeah. so if you have if you are stuck on a ten mile run, you got your glass of wine waiting at the finish line, you can only run with one of your divas.

43:13 Who are you picking and why? probably Erin, because then we could make fun of everybody. It's like Eren is horrible. Right. You know, uh it's she's just she was just a fun character, but yeah. she was a fun character. Yeah, I don't want to say anything more, but you know, she was she was fun. So right, let's do a couple quick questions. Who is your favorite housewife in general that you've worked on for editing like in your editing career? So I will say, and one of my characters is based. Do you know who Dolores Catania is for New Jersey? Okay. So I worked on this the I worked on Housewives and I was there when Dolores, it was Dolores' first season.

43:58 And Dolores and one of my characters named Danielle is based on Dolores. Dolores is such a class act, and she refuses, and she's been friends with Teresa and Joe Gorgoff. So they went to high school together. So Teresa and Joe are constantly fighting. Her brother, right? They're always fighting. And Teresa doesn't want her to side with Joe. And d Dolores is like, look, I love you. I love him too. Like, I'm not gonna pick. You know what I mean? I don't let them talk about you in front of me, but I'm not gonna like I I love him as much as I love you. And I just feel like she carries that through everything. And I had never seen it before. If you watch Housewives, it's like your team this one and team that one, and you're not in the middle.

44:41 And if you're in the middle, you're gonna get murdered. Not Mm. Yeah. Maybe. You never know. know what I mean? Like you're gonna have to be pulled to one side eventually. Whereas Dolores has skated the middle and she does it perfectly, and it's not duplicity at all. She's really j she's not trying to be evil, it's just who she is. And I think that I've never seen that in reality TV. And I always thought it was just a beautiful thing for a woman to be on to come on these shows and actually be herself and be respected for it. Because you know A lot of these women are characters, you know, like Kenya Moore is a bitch. Kenya Moore is a lovely woman. I love Kenya Moore. You know what I mean? Like I think she's great. Um, yeah, I mean, they're all, you know, look, it's it's a hyper, you know, dramatic situation.

45:29 I also write this in the book. It's like, you know, you see these women after the season's done shooting, you know, you you we're all following them on Instagram. It's like they're able to go out to dinner without getting in a fight. Uh yeah. just because the cameras are there that everything is good. And look, they get paid lots of money to do it. So, you know, and they do it well and we're all hooked. Like I still watch Jersey, you know what I mean? Like I miss those women. Um, yeah. So Um, and so how did you name your housewives? so my housewives are all my nieces and their husbands are my nephews, and then my nephews are, you know, throughout the book, you know, the sound guy, the whatever. Um, but uh, and I d I don't think I'll do it again because it's like I don't want one of my nieces to think that I feel like she's the bitch or she's the awful or she's the stupid one.

46:15 It's just like I literally had a list of names, and as I was writing, again, not maybe if I plotted it out, I could have done it better. But it's like I was a panther, I'm like, okay. Who's next? Shannon. Okay. This is what Shannon's doing, you know. So um, yeah, so that was it. But I love that, you know, like I look, being Uncle Tim is the best thing. I almost signed my email to you today. I almost signed love, Uncle Tim. Because it's the it was the it's the best thing that's ever happened to me being Uncle Tim. I loved being an uncle. I love all of my nieces and nephews so much. Like it was just an amazing thing to be able to just be loved unconditionally by these little babies and you know have them watch them grow up.

47:00 You know, I don't have any kids of my own, but it's like, I don't know how, like when my sister let my nephew drive, I was like, how I couldn't do it. Like how you gonna he's driving away. Like, stop him. Gonna hit somebody. It's only 16. You know what I mean? So like I I felt the angst, you know, of being an uncle, but you know, it's um it was also great because like I could take them out, get them all sugared up. And send him home. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. ah wanted to sort of, you know, pay homage to me being an uncle and, you know, having uh the most beautiful nieces and nephews. And just that I'm so grateful to uh to them, you know, for giving, I don't know, giving me that experience, you know.

47:44 So I didn't have it with my own aunts and uncles. So I was, I just wanted to, I wanted to be able to create memories with my nieces and nephews and I was able to do that. So I just wanted to pay them back a little by doing this, but never again. I mean my sister's screaming because she's not in the book. So now I made the big bit my sister Colleen. So now I made Colleen the big bitch in the new book. So you know, there you go. You wanted to be in it, you're the bitch. You're gonna die. in your thinking in the future, how many franchises franchises of this book do you want? So I'm having it's three. So it's how Dead House was a Philadelphia, next one is Dead Housewives of Boca, and then the the last one is Dead Husbands of Philadelphia.

48:26 We're gonna bring it back. They're gonna bring it back to Philadelphia to end the franchise. Yeah. So like after after the women, you know, like because I said to a writer friend of mine, I was like, he's you should write a a series. And I was like, like, how many housewives shows can there be where the women are dying? You know what I mean? So it's like I figured a way around it. So it's like, you know. Philadelphia happened and then Boca happens three years later. You know, there's so there's three years without nothing happening. And then the Boca Divas die. And then like a couple years later, they're gonna say, in order to, you know, officially close out the franchise, we're gonna give people what they've been asking for, which is gay husbands. So we're gonna do the diva husbands of Philadelphia and then they're gonna be dead. So and then that'll be the last one.

49:07 So I c I'm telling you, I can't imagine there'll be any difference writing for big bitchy queens than there are with writing these, you know. Yeah. Oh it's probably better, honestly. You could have the uh the you could do the Rich Husbands of New Hope. I know there's uh there's lots of them. There you go. Um so you've given us, my gosh, so many laughs and so much information, and we are so excited for your book. But if readers take just one thing from reading your book besides never trusting a producer, what Do you hope it is? Uh no, well it's okay.

50:03 What else would you hope they take away from it? Uh so I think what I you know, I feel like this book is, you know, I write in the in the author's note, you know, it's it's not a liter a literary masterpiece. It's like me, it's pure entertainment. And I feel like like look, the world is a little uh topsy turvy right now, it's insane. And um I feel like my book is an escape. And that's what I want it to be, just like the just like the shows are, right? So it's it's just like the shows. It's something you can turn the page and just be so engulfed in what happens. And the fact that I was an editor for so long and I had to do, you know, thousands of teases to get you to come back from commercial, I think that I've done a pretty good job at ending every chapter with like, you know, a big cliffhang and, you know, you're saying, my God, I can't go to bed yet.

50:50 So I want people to just enjoy themselves and read it. And, you know, it's a world, if you love the Housewives, it's a world that you're familiar with. And if you don't love the Housewives, it is at its core, it's a murder mystery. You know, so you you if even if you don't like the Housewives, it's a murder mystery. Um, so I feel like anybody will feel at home in the pages. So Awesome. my gosh. Well this has been such an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for pulling back the curtain on reality TV and sharing your book with us today. Thanks so much for coming on. Yes. I love this. Yeah, of course. So the book is available on Amazon, but I always like to tell everybody to support your support your local bookstores and you know, call your local bookstore and ask them if they'll get it in for you.

51:39 I I just think that does it's it's better. You know, Amazon is the largest bookstore in the world, but you know, if you can buy it, if you can buy local, I think that's better better thing to do. So And thank you so much for buying and supporting. Thanks. and to the audience, thank you so much for spending time with us today on the Running Wine Mom. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow me on Instagram at the Running Wine Mom underscore and Tim, besides bookstores, where can the listeners find you? Amazon. Yeah. did you have like do you want to share your handle? Like your Instagram handle? Yep. you can go to my the website is deadhousewives.com and you can go there and read the pro before you buy the book, you can go there and read the prologue.

52:20 Um and see the divas, photos of the divas. And then you can find me at head and rights, it's my last name and the word rights on TikTok. Just can you follow me on TikTok? It's so hard to build people on TikTok. So just everyone just go to TikTok. Even if you block me, I don't care. Just follow me. yeah. So every every social I'm Head and Rights. So Okay, awesome. Well, thank you so much again. Thank you to everyone for joining us today. Remember, you are strong, you are capable, and you are all amazing. Until next time, keep running, keep sipping, keep enjoying those, uh, keep reading those books and embracing the joy of parenthood. Cheers, and I will be back next Tuesday. Thank you. That was so great. Yay.

53:01 much. I hope I didn't